Dog Forum

I was offended by SB at the beginning but I admit that was probably because she challenged me! I take no offence at all now. SB is clearly very passionate about dogs and their welfare and thats good enough for me!

If a person starts a thread on a particular issue, they invite coment and discussion. If they expect everyone to agree with them, then don't bother posting, simple as!

I don't think its anyone's place to say who's opinion or (attitude) is welcome on the forum, surely that is for the moderator to decide.

Mousey - keeping up with the other two is something I had neglected to think about! Nothing set in stone yet - in the pipeline though!

Gypsy78 wrote:
... SB is clearly very passionate about dogs and their welfare and thats good enough for me!

If a person starts a thread on a particular issue, they invite coment and discussion. If they expect everyone to agree with them, then don't bother posting, simple as!

I don't think its anyone's place to say who's opinion or (attitude) is welcome on the forum...

I'm also passionate about dogs, and appreciate that SB is too, that' great, and I assume that's why we're all here?

Yes, I did start this thread, because I wanted some advice. I didn' start it so I could be criticized by somebody who doesn't know me, my dogs or anything about us. SBs comments were based upon her assumptions, and I don't appreciate that, it's very arrogant.
There's no need to go on a massive rampage just because you're passionate about dogs

I love this forum, and I don't want to come on here to bitch, but if I come on to what I consider to be a personal attack, of course I'm going to defend myself!

Now, SB, can we throw childish strops aside and get back to what we're all here to do - to share our passion for dogs?

Clair.

P.S. Kizzy, I'm new too

None of us are anybody to judge, but as Gypsy said in so many words, we're all entitled to our opinions

YOU May be having a childish strop Mousey, but please do NOT assume I am, ROFLMHO!!!!!

If you passionately believe that your view is correct then there would be no need to go on the defensive and get upset about being criticised.

My criticism was constructive and not a personal attack to demonstrate one of the human beings commonest behaviours to blame something or somebody else for their failures.

When a dog or human is not performing the way I want, I examine MYSELF first to try and determine what different ways I can use to switch the light bulb on.

That is how people develop the skills necessary to get the results they want.

So, I reiterate, dogs do not do stubborn. If you think about it, what possible reason would they have for doing stubborn?

There is none.

If dogs do not do what we ask, we have not made it simple enough, we have not provided sufficient reward.

If we did, there would be no reason for the dog to refuse to do it would there?

Most training fails because of humans deciding what should be rewarding for the dogs (ie those who choose not to use food for training); it is the DOG that decides what is punishing and rewarding not US!

One of my dogs is highly motivated by a toy, the other by food. If I decided that I preferred not to use food (for reasons I could never fathom) then I would not get the best out of that dog. So why would I choose not to?!

Hmmm, because I was stubborn!!!!???

smokey, i understand what you're saying about the dog being stubborn or not. But i think you may be coming across as a bit patronizing. And calling mousey childish when you're putting "ROFLMHO", it doesn't really make you look much different thats all. Yes it was constructive criticism which we all need and probably grateful for, but i think it may be useful to just sometimes put it across in a different way and think of how it may sound to others. It is clearly obvious you are passionate about dogs and like mousey said, thats what wer' all here for so obviously your help is useful. But i think it sometimes does come across as a bit offensive.

Maybe if SB wrote "In my opinion . . ." in it's posts more often there wouldn't be so many arguments . . .

And calling mousey childish
Sigh, here we go again, putting words into my mouth, inferring things which the writer did not imply.

Nowhere have you seen me post any such thing!

At the risk of repeating myself, nobody can stop ANYONE TAKING offence, it is impossible, if you choose to take offence at constructive criticism that is your choice. NO personal insults have ever been written by me!

Hi darling Smokeybear :

Oh my good God, here we go again I don't know why you're carrying on your rampage?
I have absolutely nothing against you, so what is the problem? Because I have a difference of opinion to you? I repeat... how old are you?

I can see now that I'm quite obviously wasting my time with you - reasoning with you is like trying to reason with a child! You're being completely unreasonable and blowing things waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of proportion!

Haven't you ever heard of compromise? Or the concept of agreeing to disagree? That's what adults do, m'dear.

It is only your opinion that dogs are not stubborn, just as it is only my opinion that they can be.
Carrying on and on like a child isn't going to convince me otherwise.

Your criticism wasn't constructive at all (constructive criticism is given to be helpful, not to be insulting) - you were just being bitchy and valuing your opinions above those of others, as if they're absolute cold hard facts, which they are NOT.
At the end of the day, you know sweet F.A., because you don't know me or my dogs - you're simply making assumptions, based upon a few posts on here. You can't judge me by that - my posts don't tell you everything about me and my dogs, they're not entirely representative of who I am or what I stand for as a person. So STOP attacking me, it is not necessary!

So, why don't you get down off your high horse and grow up a bit?

We can either agree to disagree and be civil to one another like adults do, you can have yet another pop at me, wail like a baby and simply make yourself look stupid, or you can just ignore me and I will ignore you likewise! Choice is yours -

Clair.

I have yet to comment on the whole stubborn or not case. But if my memory is correct I do remember SB stating dogs are similar to people with how they act and such.

Now my main point is. If a dog is like a person with feelings acts and such. They can be stubborn. As people can be VERY stubborn. My friend has a cavalier king charles spaniel who is VERY stubborn.

Also commenting on the 'daxies are not lap dogs'. I have another friend who has a daxie. And he would like nothing more then to curl up on someone's lap and sleep. Does that not make him a lap dog?

Also Mousey ~ Horray to you, well done on not backing down and letting SB get to you.

i knowwww there were no personal insults made!!! i quite clearly said that i agree with you on dogs being stubborn, i merely said it MAY! come across as a bit patronizing etc, even though it seems as though you're not meaning it in that way. I doubt you are wanting to be bitchy or anything. but like mousey said - it does sound a little less like constructive criticism than you think, just because of the way things are worded. and i have never inferred things which were not said! you inferred that mousey was having a childish strop, and i merely said that saying roflmho was a little childish yourself.
don't take offence because i have not once said anything offensive or implying anything, other than agreement. all i was saying was it may come across as patronizing.

Hi DAHLING mousey, I think your use of the word rampage is incorrect in the context of this thread, why not look up the meaning of the word in a dictionary?

I do not have a problem, do you?

I cannot see that my posts are any more unreasonable than yours, I am blowing nothing out of proportion, I am merely stating both facts and opinions.

M'dear I fully understand what adults do, and the meaning of compromise, but I agree if you continue to respond to my posts in a childlike way, it is pointless and a waste of time, so why waste it?

I am neither attacking you or judging you, merely stating the obvious, that those without the requisite skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience in ANY field will lay blame for failure to learn on the learner rather than the trainer.

I am not wailing like a baby, again the only person hurling meaningless insults is you Mousey, not I.

Unlike you I do not have to resort to these nor the initials for obscenities.

saz bimbo, I have never stated that dogs are similar to humans with how they act and such. They are not.

For example, dogs are completely amoral, they do not do spite, shame or guilt as humans do.

I have never met a stubborn dog, please give me an example of how a dog expresses stubborness and fails to do something because it is motivated by this?

I would like to learn from all these experiences of stubborness that dogs display.

Kizzy I did not infer that Mousey was having a childish strop. Perhaps you should consult the dictionary to understand the difference between "infer" and "imply".

As I have said many times before, I never take offence, why should I?

Once again, nobody can control how someone else feels without their consent! ;~)

i am not even going to comment on this anymore, it's getting a little silly. Mousey was only wanting a bit of advice. now we have all given it. lets leave it?
i didn't mean to put that i was just copying what you had put so i remembered and forgot to delete it and put a different word in. very sorry, you 'implied' then... in my opinion but i dont think there is any need to tell everyone to look in the dictionary as though its that big a deal that the wrong word has been put in. i have an a level in english literature and language and do know what words mean lol. perhaps you should consult somebody about how to portray what you actually mean, i can see completely that you are not meaning to offend people, but clearly you are doing. that doesn't mean they need to not get offended, if there are more people taking offence than the one doing the offending - surely its the one doing the offending that needs to change and think of other ways of getting their point across

Dogs aren't daft mousey kumar,once offered a bribe,they don't forget,& want payment.Would you work for no pay?

I agree. Dogs only do somethimg if they get something back, if theres something in it for them.

In the house treats works for my dog, outside its a tennis ball

I disagree with that Migsy and Gypsy. My dog Rogue would sit for me whenever I told him to. And I would simply vocally praise him. I didn't have to give him anything.

Also SB. If a dog doesn't want to do something. It will not do it. That is called stubbornness. So why not stop FORCING your ideas on someone.

Also, no matter how qualified or experienced someone is. They STILL make mistakes. And do not know everything.

I know what you mean Saz.Example of Tess today I told her to sit in the vet and she complied. I vocally praised her and gave her a pat on the head.

In essence though she is still sitting for something be it praise, a pat, toy or treat.

No one ever stops learning saz b,I have had the pleasure of being around dogs all my life,my very own shetland sheepdog at 11yrs old.And must say I have learned new things from S.B.I can't understand people being offended by his knowledge.

Whether or not the dog is reinforced by food, toys, body contact, vocally etc it is STILL being paid!

Ah so if a dog chooses not to do something, how do you know if it is not doing so because it:

a) does not understand
b) is "stubborn"
c) is disobedient
d) did not hear you
e) did not find the reinforcement you chose rewarding enough?

Can you please expand Saz bimbo on how you would determine the cause of the dog's refusal to do something?

I would like to know.

You appear to have interpreted the refusal to do something having only one possible motivator, stubborness?

I've had problems with SB in the past telling me I need to learn coz of my age, telling me I need to learn better, telling me I need to learn fact from opinion. When they criticised me when discussing bloat. They criticise me when I try to point something out. And then try to force opinion and fact onto me.

I simply stated my friends dog is very stubborn and they question me on that! As if I don't KNOW. What stubborn means. It truly annoys me. :/